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Post by fingerstyle on Apr 9, 2013 18:05:40 GMT -5
Suggestion is to remove safety third from the primary perks options.
Reasoning:
Higher skill ceiling with grenades, making them less spammy and less forgiving in terms of accuracy needed.
One possible downside is a somewhat noticeable nerf to jug on stand, lowering the amount of hand discs they can carry from 4 to 3. Also makes it harder for the sentinel to deflect infiltrators in specific situations. Can't spam grenades to distance oneself from said infiltrator.
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Post by davidbowie on Apr 9, 2013 18:42:46 GMT -5
I don't think we should be removing (decreasing variety of strats/playstyle) anything unless a case can be made that it is making the game worse to play and I have not seen safety third become a glaring issue ruining the game. If we remove every little thing that bothers some people we will end up with LT or shootmania which, while they could be considered more balanced, are not the full tribes experience.
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clout
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Post by clout on Apr 9, 2013 19:16:04 GMT -5
I don't think we should be removing (decreasing variety of strats/playstyle) anything unless a case can be made that it is making the game worse to play and I have not seen safety third become a glaring issue ruining the game. If we remove every little thing that bothers some people we will end up with LT or shootmania which, while they could be considered more balanced, are not the full tribes experience. Play defense! It's pretty glaring. 4 frag XLs per player is ridiculous and can put huge (1000 dmg one shots snipers and LDs) damage over a massive area, giving the defense very few options/safe areas. I don't think grenade spam adds to the 'tribes experience' I've played a lot of soldier offense(it's all I play in PUGs for the last few months) and a lot of LD so I've seen the issue from both sides and it is most definitely overpowered. There's little to no skill required and yet it is an extremely effective strat. Grenades are very strong without safety third, so it's not like banning S3 is going to make it impossible to clear, it's just going to make it so offensive players can't crutch as hard on FFFFK and might have to rely more on duelling skill.
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Post by davidbowie on Apr 9, 2013 19:25:07 GMT -5
I agree that safety 3rd FFF SLD O is pretty dumb, but I think removing it unfairly limits what other classes such as jugs can do. And we have yet to see SLD O become a dominant meta as it can be somewhat fragile compared to Jugs or Raiders or Brutes, which can also clear pretty well.
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clout
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Post by clout on Apr 9, 2013 20:03:16 GMT -5
We don't have to limit the other classes though do we? We banned rage on sentinel, can't we just ban S3 on soldiers? In my eyes the soldier grenades are the only ones that are a real issue, frag XLs and even APs are just stronger (and more difficult to avoid in the XLs case) than their counterparts on other classes. I'm not sure what you would define as 'dominant meta' but there's definitely plenty of teams and players utilizing soldiers and their F spam. WLW obviously has been using soldier clear to great effect, I've seen all of the 5150 offense use soldier at one point or another (even Muk ) and Vex definitely has some v stronk soldier O players too.
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Post by davidbowie on Apr 9, 2013 20:07:48 GMT -5
What I mean is that if a particular strat is actually that good/broken/OP, everyone will do it all the time, like they did back in the days of triple raider O. 5150 has done it before as has everyone, but it is not even close to being their most common O setup. WLW uses it more than others due to ping fuck, but even they use a lot of other classes.
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lazy
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Post by lazy on Apr 9, 2013 20:59:26 GMT -5
Bowie haven't most teams used a sld O in matches? One well timed soldier can do a tremendous amount of burst damage to the stand, which rdr in it's current state cannot, and I don't believe any jug runs the AP's(Which I think might turn out to be very OP if people can stand to loose their disks.) A s3 ban on just soldier shouldn't hurt anybody but O, and good O would still be able to clear with soldier.
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Post by verticle on Apr 9, 2013 21:03:00 GMT -5
Doesn't seem like a big enough problem to me to ban. Its too easy isn't a good enough reason for me, it isn't so consistent that it is a real problem.
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Post by evonvonrocket on Apr 9, 2013 21:29:33 GMT -5
One thing I noticed right away when I came back after a few months was how many people were playing soldier offense. I soon figured out why.
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Post by scroom38 on Apr 9, 2013 22:31:29 GMT -5
I really see no glaring OP-ness of Safety third on SLD. I also don't see a reason why it shouldn't be banned in SLD. Give it a try, see how it works.
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lazy
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Post by lazy on Apr 9, 2013 22:34:09 GMT -5
It's incredibly easy to do, and clears just as well as raider or jug.
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clout
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Post by clout on Apr 9, 2013 23:38:34 GMT -5
Its too easy isn't a good enough reason for me, it isn't so consistent that it is a real problem. Balance issues aren't a good enough basis for banningl? S3 with Frag XLs makes it so you have four huge radius high damage grenades to put out. That's a shit load of damage over a very large area with very little skill required. 1 less grenade and slightly reduced radius on grenades is a good and smart nerf for sld FFFF spam. It makes it so soldiers can't carpet bomb flag stands quite as effectively(which is really the Juggs purpose anyway) and makes it so soldiers will have to be a little more accurate and little less spammy with their grenades. If HiRez were to put that in a patch I think people would react positively to it, they'd think HiRez were actually paying attention. So why not just do it ourselves by removing safety third for soldiers?
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Post by mythdemeanor on Apr 10, 2013 1:43:19 GMT -5
Ban it on SLD please. Frag XL offense is retarded, but banning it for all classes would be pretty shit. It's good situationally for PTH, saves SEN's ass in 1v1 pretty often, and pretty much a necessity for JUG HoF, so banning it outright would be pretty dumb.
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Post by bootswiththefur on Apr 10, 2013 4:52:09 GMT -5
I don't feel like this is totally necessary. Soldiers still have to get pretty close to the stand to f spam.
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Post by vornskr on Apr 10, 2013 5:21:39 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of this ban. To run safety third you have to sacrifice reach, which is pretty useful if you might ever want to transition into cluster play. If we ban S3 then LO will just always run reach instead.
Press f to clear is a spammy strat, but it doesn't strictly dominate lots of other O possibilities. It's the sort of thing that a good D should be able to adapt to no problem.
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