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Post by mythdemeanor on Apr 10, 2013 5:37:05 GMT -5
pls teach me how to adapt to carpet bomb i want to know your ways
Seriously wtf are you supposed to do against competent SLD bombing? Run to capper's midway point on routes and try to midair him? Nowhere is safe from the nuke that is Frag XL
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Post by bootswiththefur on Apr 10, 2013 6:25:22 GMT -5
Focus firing soldier offense is very effective. Even a mediocre LD can out-duel a good soldier if the sent is putting shots on him in the midfield. A soldier heavy offense will have to group well to make it to the stand.
Grenade spam is also not very effective against LD near the stand. A lot of times the HoF will go down, but the LD will still be able to get the conc because they are floating far enough away from the stand when the capper comes in that they aren't within the radius of the grenades.
IMHO if the offense can successfully cross the map together by grouping well and can kill out the defense in the window necessary for the cap to get out then they deserve the clear. Pressing F isn't hard, but timing the clear is. I'm not really sure how much a fourth grenade matters if their entire offense is right on your head when the capper comes in.
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Post by vornskr on Apr 10, 2013 7:15:38 GMT -5
Seriously wtf are you supposed to do against competent SLD bombing? Routecamp Engage soldier LO early in mid. They have tissue paper for health. Conc from a distance, ezpz. Stay off stand until the last possible second. Inf on flag. Keep gen up and make use of forcefield. Don't eat pineapples. Seriously, though, what do you do against fractals on stand, or against competent raider GL on stand?
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Post by mythdemeanor on Apr 10, 2013 8:52:57 GMT -5
Did you two just magically fail to realize that SLD has the best AR in the game and access to Eagle pistol as well? Killing LD is not a problem at ALL for a competent SLD O, and saying "engage in midfield" is not really an option when they just run offense routes and come up on you 10 seconds or so before cap slides in. Nobody does the old Raider group and walk up to stand anymore.
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clout
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by clout on Apr 10, 2013 12:20:26 GMT -5
Yea I completely disagree with you Vorn/Boots. Soldier is THE best duelling class in the game and any decent soldier is going to be running a route to the stand that will make it near impossible for an LD to kill him before he is within range to carpet bomb. Soldier is supposed to be weaker at clearing but stronger at dueling, there should be a tradeoff but with S3+Frag XLs there is no tradeoff, you can have the strongest dueling class and still have ridiculously strong clearing potential. Speaking as somebody who plays SLD O and LD regularly frag XLs are incredibly potent against LDs, all you need to do is brush them with ONE of your FOUR massive radius grenades and they are fucked. Fractals and raider GL are easy as hell to avoid and don't one shot you, so I don't really see the comparison there. Not to mention the fact that if the raider is spamming GL they are incredibly vulnerable and can't duel for shit, while the soldier can be defending himself and dueling people out WHILE spamming out his nades and clearing the stand. Soldiers just have too much going for them on offense. They are the best dueling class, they have some of the strongest clear in the game w/ S3+Frag XL, they are the most mobile O class which makes them easier to time clear with and very capable of making plays on the flag. One less grenade and slightly reduced radius is not going to make SLD O weak, it will make it balanced.
There's a reason I quit LD in PUGs and just play SLD O all the time
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Post by fingerstyle on Apr 10, 2013 14:59:22 GMT -5
For those worried about side effects to juggernaut or brute, looter is still a good choice for both those classes.
Looter on a jug means you need to pick up a nugget to get your 4th and 5th discs, looter on a brute means you need a nugget to pick up your 3rd and 4th fractals.
Imo that's a good thing, encourages slightly less semi route burst clear and slightly more midfield play. Finally there's actually an advantage to dueling out the LD on the way over. Bam, more gameplay depth, and that applies to any offensive clearing class (sld, raider, jug, brute)
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Post by bootswiththefur on Apr 10, 2013 15:56:59 GMT -5
I'm not against trying out the ban. I just disagree that S3 makes soldier offense unstoppable. There are counters and it's not as though teams only run soldiers on O. I think that a soldier without S3 tossing three frags on the stand is going to disrupt the HoF with nearly the same effectiveness and it will have only a minor effect on the offense meta, if any at all. I'd rather see bans focusing on things that are clearly breaking the meta game.
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Post by davidbowie on Apr 10, 2013 20:28:06 GMT -5
I'm not against trying out the ban. I just disagree that S3 makes soldier offense unstoppable. There are counters and it's not as though teams only run soldiers on O. I think that a soldier without S3 tossing three frags on the stand is going to disrupt the HoF with nearly the same effectiveness and it will have only a minor effect on the offense meta, if any at all. I'd rather see bans focusing on things that are clearly breaking the meta game. +1
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Post by mukhtar1 on Apr 11, 2013 9:28:55 GMT -5
I'm down for it since I don't use it, but personally I've never had problem dealing with soldier for the short time I've played LD in pugs or hof, and even sniper in scrims while standing on the stand. Most players dont know how to utilize soldier, they just rush in thinking "LOLDERPIMGUDATDUELING", but realisticly w/o the raider's survivability, it only takes 1 snipe, and a few chain to lock down a soldier.
Whenever I see a soldier on offense I cheer with glee because it is the easiest thing in the world to outduel as a path bcuz no shieldpack or throwing discs, but realisticly the proper way to soldier clear is to do timed routes with capper and clear then because if a coordinated sniper and LD teamup to take down a soldier, it'll only take seconds.
ban emp xls+s3 pls.
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Post by romanticowl on Apr 13, 2013 1:48:40 GMT -5
This is kind of going on a tangent, but rather than banning S3 for soldiers, why not get rid of Frag XL's if they're a problem?
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Post by mythdemeanor on Apr 13, 2013 4:33:38 GMT -5
Because you can do the same thing with AP grenades instead, just trading blast radius for more damage, which is even stronger against heavies. The problem is having 4 SLD nades thrown at you, not the specific nade.
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Post by thomasb on Apr 13, 2013 14:40:22 GMT -5
The problem with banning safety third to try to fix the problem of F spam is this: frag XL nades already have a huge radius, and the one extra nade really isnt what makes it op. I really feel that the f spamming issue comes more from quickdraw on sld than s3rd. It isn't the nades themselves either, it's the fact that you can show up 6 seconds before the cap is due, hit f four times in 3 seconds and have the nades blow up just in time for cap to come through unscathed.
I would be in favor of testing a quickdraw ban on soldier, it would also have the potential of bringing raider O back into favor.
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Post by pragmalice on Apr 13, 2013 17:27:06 GMT -5
I concur with quickdraw being the root issue with SLD O. My only worry is that banning quickdraw just on soldier basically kills its parity with other classes for just about any role because of the dual effect that quickdraw has on both grenade output and weapon switching speed's effect on dueling in general.
Conceptually, I'd have to argue for a global ban on quickdraw, and that has other effects that are sure to effect the meta in both good and bad ways. While I'm not particularly warm n' fuzzy for the notion, I'd say it's at least worth trying out.
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clout
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by clout on Apr 15, 2013 11:31:31 GMT -5
Global ban on quickdraw would make the game so slow and boring, I'd probably just quit the game if there was no QD, weapon switch time w/o is sooooolooooong.
I think removing QD on just soldier is too much of a nerf as well, SLD O and SoF would just be less effective then their counterparts on other classes, they wouldn't be viable anymore. S3 ban on just soldier nerfs SLD O while keeping it viable, so it is a better option imo.
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Post by fingerstyle on Apr 16, 2013 14:40:46 GMT -5
Global ban on quickdraw would make the game so slow and boring, I'd probably just quit the game if there was no QD, weapon switch time w/o is sooooolooooong. I think removing QD on just soldier is too much of a nerf as well, SLD O and SoF would just be less effective then their counterparts on other classes, they wouldn't be viable anymore. S3 ban on just soldier nerfs SLD O while keeping it viable, so it is a better option imo. SoF is already less effective then other stand D options, but I'd agree with everything else there. I'd support a S3 ban on soldier and raider, but it's not easy to enforce that. I'm still for a universal ban, as it's not going to break the game. Jug with 3 hand discs and brutes with 2 fractals will still be very strong on clear and on stand D. Looter and reach will be close to equivalent in effectiveness, requiring a choice instead of what we have now where safety third is used nearly 100% of the time. May take some getting used to, having to be more precise with grenades, but it's worth it in the long run. Spamming grenades has never made this game more fun to play or more entertaining to watch. And if you want this game to be competitive, precision should always be rewarded over spam. My 2 cents.
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